682 replies to this topic

[dixon cox]

It's ok DC I don't mind

I'll tell you this... Before any money leaves my trouser pocket I WILL be handling some more cameras in-store before I make a final decision...

This will include the Canon EOS 450D :o

You know I like the Nikon D60, but nothing is set in stone. However, it gives me a good place to start my comparisons and to also determine how much money I am prepared to spend, including a decent lens.

Some questions I have regarding the so-called kit lenses:
- Are these only sold with cameras and therefor of lesser quality than individually bought lenses?
- Keep it or dump it? Are they worth it or is it better to get a price reduction without it to then put towards one new single lens (maybe 18-135mm or 18-200mm) which covers the zoom range of the kit lens (i.e.18-55mm)?

[Josh69]

On forums i read numerous bad comments about the D60 Nikon: bad system against dust, no liveview, lcd 2,5'' only, no stabilization (though no problem with a VR Lens), already outdated etc :? People expect more from Nikon and tell the D60 is just a little upgrade of the D40X (No real innovation). Their advice would be to invest a little bit more money and turn towards the Canon EOS 450D. I read two tests and i have to admit it is a really good option/compromise (probably my choice), i don't know yet.

- Dust? Canon has sensor cleaning, not sure about Nikon.
- Dust? you want to learn how to clean you sensor manually
- Dust? you get a transparent protective filter for your lens
- Dust? You mean grain? Sensor and processor dependent, you have to make a trade off there at entry level (i.e. not shoot above 200 (400max) ISO), you don't want to give in on shutter speed unless your creating intended effects, and the F-stops depends on you depth of field needs and want, hence you have to learn to use the flash - either the fixed (on entry-levels) or mounted, to allow you to make most of light.
- live view, argh, guys, you want to shoot optical! Otherwise seriously don't spend the money on dSLR and get a bridge, they are really nice systems. Optical allows you to focus in on subject(s) of your composition (see my tip about focussing and then changing composition whilst maintaining initial focus).
- lcd size doesn't really matter, you only want to use it to check, check for picture quality, color balance, etc at micro level and look at overall composition at macro level.
- IS, again, get it in your heads, only useful when shooting at shutter speeds below 1/30 which you want to avoid other then for getting cool motion effect. If you shoot indoors, use a mounted flash , or the standard flash that comes on the entry-levels.
- Outdated? A lot of the small meaningless innovations are nice to have, but less is more. Focus on getting the basic items at good entry level quality. The only way for the major brands to differentiate themselves from competitors is through these secondary innovations. For the body focus on sensor and processor reviews first and foremost, and meaningful nice to haves considering your purposes, i.e. auto sensor cleaning on Canon, if you want IS on body, user iterface you feel most comfortbale with, etc. I would advice anyone the 450D a few months ago, but now am quite keen on the new 1000D. The latter is award winning and the entry level dSLR as far as I am concerned, and gets rave reviews on fora.

Dutch, take it easy, if need to be say, i was just trying to bring useful information.

Now, your comments may be more useful for Dixon, i'm not interested anymore in the Nikon D60 though it remains a good option.

I had a look at the EOS 1000D (also a good option) but the Canon EOS 450D is IMHO a really good compromise. As it was your first baby you do know that!!! The more i read about this device the more i'm interested in it. Needless to say, i'm very tempted.

Your opinion as a user of that EOS would be much appreciated. I'm wondering if the 450D is good for a beginner...EOS 1000D is for sure.

Cheers

[Josh69]

i also want a decent all-round VR zoom lens too, so I am forfeiting money on the camera to spend on the lens which I hope to carry over to my next Nikon dSLR should I get bitten by the bug.

Dixon, i understand your point of view and i should think the same way i guess (reason!). I may end up with a 800€ bill :? (EOS 450D alone + Sigma DC 18-200mm f3,5- 6,3). I'll still have to buy a carry bag, cards etc).

The D90 + that Nikkor Lens are amazing stuff specially when you know how to use it...Still a long way for me

[Josh69]

Considering the entry levels do not shoot full frame, a 18-200 gives you great versatily (from macro to zoom) at a effective range of 27-300. Hence, the 70-200 shoots at 105-300, which depending on the type of photos you want to take an alternative yes. But bear in mind 105 is already quite zoomy meaning you need more distance from camera to subject to get the right composition. Below 35mm and you start distorting you capture. The Sigma I really enjoyed working with, it is v.robust and of good quality build. It is very versatily and shoots good quallity photos. It is a tat slow and noisy, but seriously at entry-level you won't notice. It is a great lens all around.

About the fora. The specialist are either (1) pro photographers, they work with a hasselblad system or similar, yes, they will have a problem with this type of lens. Mainly because they shoot portrait and fashion for print at 5000+ pix, but then again they tend to shy away from many fora because of (2) , or (2) technical people with no sense of creativity whom look at fairly meaningless details. For example the 50 mm 1.2 EF L i recently bought get's critique from the latter group of people. What can I say, the lens rocks. And I love fixed focal as it means the photographer has to be active (i.e. walk around to get different compositions and focal lenghts) and it has a better overall quality capture. Not v.useful for the type of photography you want to do DC though.

Interesting, the Sigma 18-200 as i noticed before may be my final choice

[dixon cox]

You've put alot of effort into contributing to this thread Dutch and I'm sure I speak for Josh too when I say it is much appreciated.

It looks like Josh and myself are both seeking similar setups with a similar budget.

The Canon EOS 450D does look tempting and I will certainly have a closer look when I do some handling in-store.

Canon EOS 450D vs. Nikon D60:
450D has 9 point AF (D60=3)
450D has 3"LCD (D60=2.5")
450D has 12.2 Megapixels (D60=10)
450D has LiveView (D60 does not)

If I'm honest I find that I'm creeping away from the Nikon D60 a little, although I still like it. But for a bit more money there is alot more out there. By the way, the Nikon D60 does have dust reduction, such as air flow when fitting lenses and sensor vibe.