283 replies to this topic

[fridgemagnet]

Rxpharm - your post is mostly reasonable, but I don't understand the bit about postings becoming the sites' property.
The femboys thread contains many pics with acknowledgements - are these now the property of the site? - or are they there "courtesy of"?
Are you telling me that LB69 pics are not removed should such be politely requested?
Transparency is absent in the way things have been done, and are being done.

[boarhog]

Also for those who kept active on TLF and initiated reasonable correspondence with Bumpa Stikka their most recent trip reports were moved into the VIP Preview forum. Not the most ideal solution for now, but there are ongoing discussions about the process.

Two pinned threads (65 and 35 pages) and several other mutli page threads and over 3000 posts isn't active enough? I sent a very reasonable personal email to Stogie addressing the conversion to pay site. I asked him if I could be re-instated as a VIP and if he couldn't find a way then I would rather be cleansed from the site. He did nothing, and didn't even have the courtesy to respond. If my contributions weren't significant enough to justify me as a VIP then why does he need to keep them? I now see that I'm not alone as fridgemagnet pointed out. Who knows how many others? Yes a few others threads have been moved up to the free area upon request.

Rxpharm - Happy to see those who used to harass other posters unite against the evil empire of TLF.

So let me get it straight, you ment this forum and used to harass posters? Does this group include everyone who posted before you speaking up against what TLF has done? Me, frdigemagnet, Petesie, Kliome, Dixon Cox, Erichalfabee, etc.?

Doesn't this tell you something when Erichalfabee, DC and myself don't agree on much but we passionately agree that post should be deleted upon request especially when they are being used for monetary gain.

You guys can, and do silence people who disagree with Stogie over there. Over here you can't do that so you just try catagorize us as a group of malcontents. Nice spin.

[Crackerjax]

I haven't voted on this poll but this thread is an interesting read. Generally speaking I am willing to pay for quality content over the internet and am a subscriber to a number of different pay services, including porn (PPV), sport (LIVE), financial info, and news.

Not sure that I would pay for this Forum on it's own, but I suspect that if access was restricted to members of the LB69 pay site I would probably enroll there. I don't currently as I try to limit the amount of time I spend whacking off in front of a computer screen , but if I was ever actually threatened with cut-off from the drivel coming from you lot I would have to man up and pay for some more dirty pictures and old phone numbers.

I used to be an ATS paid subscriber back when Stogie was running their Forum and I quite enjoyed his grumpy facade. After awhile I found the Forum more interesting than the paid content, but through sheer inertia remained a subscriber until ATS decided to bar access to anyone with a Chinese IP address. Thank you ATS! When I met Stogie on one of my first visits to Guess Bar back in 07 he was quite nice and offered to give me a proxy route to get back on ATS - but by then I was here.

Free content is great, but the fact is that newspapers and traditional free TV are disappearing without anything comparable replacing them if you want good writers and/or quality reporting (as opposed to bloviating). Why? Writers and reporters cost money and no one has yet figured out how to pay for them in a world where almost everything is now available instantly AND for free on the internet.

And it's not just the dinosaurs - new media is finding it hard in a free environment too. YouTube is one of the most significant developments of the 21st century but even with Google as an owner YouTube is still bleeding red as a free, advertiser supported service.

I take it that TLF is not connected to a porn site with it's subscriber revenues, and I'm guessing that TLF doesn't have Google as a shareholder, so the bandwidth costs of supporting a large community dealing in image rich content will be an issue for it. Of course whether or not it can survive as a pay service yet to be determined, but having unhappy ex-customers is never a great start.

[Hoot]

Definitely an interesting thread...I don't follow what's happening on TLF but it sounds like some interesting changes.

Let's be honest - most people don't run websites out of the goodness of their hearts. They want to make money, not just cover costs. At least that is why I do it.

One thing I take issue with is the excuse that keeps coming up that bandwidth and server costs are expensive which is one of the reasons they are converting to a paid membership.

A forum, even with a 90,000 images is not that intensive on resources. They aren't being downloaded all day, everyday. You can purchase hosting now days with Unlimited Bandwidth and Disk space...for about $10 a month. If your site is sucking too many resources (which I doubt the forum does) they may require you to move to a VPS or Dedicated server which would run you about $200 - 300 a month.

I can't tell if they are running on a dedicated server or they just have a dedicated IP - but I'd be shocked to hear they needed the more expensive dedicated option. Only the operators know for sure.

But to be real - most forums have never been money making ventures on their own. It's real value for the owners draws people back to a site again and again, and hopefully generates additional revenue to supplement the main site they are attached to. It adds content and the more content the more chances someone will find them in a search engine, which means more sales. If someone thought they were going to get rich by owning a forum alone, it was a bad idea and investment. I could go on at length about monetization, and targeted traffic but it's not the time, place, and I'm sure your not interested.

If they can make a go of it good for them. They'll either be successful, run the business into the ground, or sell it to some dumb shit for more than it's worth. There isn't another option. Sorry to hear about the way they seem to be treating some of the former contributors during the transition, that type of thing sucks. But I guess they know they aren't going to get you as paid members and said fuck it, business is business. Your content is more valuable than you.

If LB-69 ever does go pay, I'd be happy to host a new forum for free..I already know I could cover my costs

But I think they know the real value and cost and as Kliome stated, right now they pay us to post.

Sorry if I digressed onto internet marketing mumbo jumbo. I guess my reply to the original question would be no - I wouldn't pay. Especially if the reasoning was keeping images from being shared, you could do the same with a true 'Trusted' member status, based on referrals, etc. And I've already said my piece on the computer resources excuse.

[kliome]

By the way do you know that some banned LB69 members who posted photos in the Free Gallery no longer have access to them and yet those photos are still available for viewing?

There are actually very few (no spamming) usernames banned from this site - I could count them on one hand. And even fewer IP adresses banned.

As far as I'm aware, only two of the users banned from here had any significant pic posts. Once banned they both asked for several (not all) pics and a TR to be deleted, and this request was fulfilled.

[boarhog]

There are actually very few (no spamming) usernames banned from this site - I could count them on one hand. And even fewer IP adresses banned.

TLF probably had that many or more last week!

As far as I'm aware, only two of the users banned from here had any significant pic posts. Once banned they both asked for several (not all) pics and a TR to be deleted, and this request was fulfilled.

A little peace of mind of mind for those LB lovers who have been jilted by the pay forum and are coming over here to enjoy the forum experience.


Hoot thanks for the very informitive post on the actual cost. Many people over there are hanging their hats on the cost issue and holding this over anyone who dares question the sites operating cost. They are subjected to name calling and bullying by the Stogie fateful. Grocery boys working for the grocery clerk.

[petesie]

We may get paid in points but I've never used them.......

I enjoy the Forum........don't really need LB porn.....or any other kind.....the BM's contributions is where I get my kicks.....like minded guys at a common watering hole......

The next best thing is meeting up with the buggers and hitting all the LB bars.......yee har!

The LBF's choice to go down this particular route is purely commercial and while their long term BM's will stay with the site (some due to their points status) the more relaxed poster, yet contributor, like myself........will stay on my all time favourite Forum.....LB69.....the best Forum by far........

In the words of Pink Floyd...."We don't need no thought control".......

[CL]

Once something it posted to a site that is hosted by a company it becomes their property as a few others have posted here. One of the prime examples is Youtube.

Consider the following. Bear in mind, I am not taking sides as I do not know well-enough the TLF context.

The above statement is not true. Outside the content that is actually legally copyrighted by the creator (i.e. the copyright statement on the content) or licensed in any other way, there can indeed be a case for copyright infrindgement here by the mere notion that without the explicit consent of the creator of the content the content is distributed for commercial purposes now (read: for payment). As a result TLF is generating revenue with content that is not legally of there own. As such, without explicit consent of the content owner in allowing TLF to do so this is in fact illegal.

However. And bear in mind I have not read the exact terms and conditions of the TLF, nor will i spend time doing so. I can not imagine that on signing up they will have a clause in the terms and conditions stating that all content ownership, i.e. include photographic content, will transfer to TLF for their purpose to use unless otherwise explicitily stated (i.e. through some form of copyright/license statement). If this is the case, the legal case becomes more ambiguous, but depending on other cases may still be considered illigal in court as copyright law states it needs the explicit consent of the creator, adding a clause in terms and conditions may not be considered explicit consent to allow third-party (read: non creator) distribution for commercial purposes.

An interesting case is e-mail marketing. A year ago, companies had to ask for explicit consent of their target audience that they are willing to receive commercial e-mail message from companies, regardless whether this was mentioned in the general terms and conditions and / or privacy statements of the companies online channels, in most case a .com website. If you have not done so, and are commercially sending e-mail messages to cutomers, this is illegal. The exact legislation is dependent on the localtion where the company running the site is registered.

With my comments I am not saying that payment for a 'VIP' section on a public forum is illegal. It obviously is not. It is a business model. What I am saying is that it is illegal to publish in such commercial domain (read: subscription-based model for VIP section on a otherwise free forum) content to which the owner of the domain has not legal right. With publish in this case it is meant the content created by BM when the forum was 100% free, and subsequently in the new business model the transfer of that content to the VIP section. There would be no case if simply a new empty VIP section was created. All the content created by BM in the new VIP section becomes part of the terms and conditions of the section.

Two other comments.

The youtube example is a particularly badly chosen one. Firstly, as you know, companies / individual creators are legally allowed to call back any distribution of their content to which they have not given explicit consent and consider harmful for their brand or impacting the company/ individual commercially. Secondly, the 'embedd' function (read, sharing of the content for non- and/or commercial purposes) has been under scrutinity for sites such as youtube, google vid, et al for the same reason, same actions can be taken should a company so wish to do so.

Another point as it portrays a clear lack of understanding how online marketing works. The server and / or bandwith capacity as root cause for decision making on payment for a public forum is a joke. Consider LB-69 forum. The primary purpose of this forum from LB-69 perspective is to drive traffic to the revenue generating parts of this site (read: commercial content, webcam, et al.) and build a community of loyal customers. The forum is a 'marketing' mechanism to do so. But surely you have to see that any investment to secure server and/or bandiwth capacity is a marketing investment made by a company with the purpose to generate revenue from there business model. As such this is a cost the company needs to bear not the customer. Not sure if the TLF forum runs on the same business model as LB-69.

[rxpharm]

Good to see some reasonable discussion of points rather than emotionally charged accusations of "blood stained hands" etc.

As for CL's last post there is something in the TLF's rules and guidelines that you must agree with upon registration with the forum.

"Posters retain personal copyright to their material and by voluntarily posting on this website allow the site owners to use said material for promotional reasons and commercial gain."

I cannot post the link here, but I will forward the link to you by pm if you would like to view all the rules and guidelines.

Crackerjax post is well thought out and Hoot's comments enlightening. CL you might have missed it, but TLF is not directly associated with a pay site like the LB69 Forum. If a site revenues start declining, then do you expect the owner to eat the cost of the server and bandwith? Does that sound like a good business decision?

While it is the site owner involved in negotiating the provision of internet hosting and bandwith - some members may remember the announcement of moving TLF to new dedicated servers in July 2008. Once again I will provide the link for those who wish to view it for themselves.

Whether or not you choose to believe what I posted is up to you, or if you would rather believe Boarhog's accusation that I am a deluded loyal spin doctor of Stogie, again that is up to you.

As I said the process is evolving so if you are interested to follow what will happen go and have a look occasionally.

[dixon cox]

Must admit, my initial and typical knee-jerk reaction post on TLF, which got me kicked out of the VIP members area within minutes of posting, was probably not very well thought out. But to be honest I've lost interest now, I am firmly dedicated to this forum and always have been.

I will still browse what little I can see of TLF from time to time though, but likely not contribute anymore... just in case any informative posts intended for everybody to see fall into some yet to be announced new paid-for area in the future.


However, for fans of conspiracy theories, it could be suggested that:
1./ Some months ago, when it was first reported that Stogie was stepping down at TLF and others were taking over, was in fact just a rouse to distance himself from the impending VIP paid-for area.
2./ All the discussions about heroes, picture postings and paying off ladyboys who don't want their pictures posted was to sow the seed for the impending paid-for VIP area as having a pro-active purpose, other than just being a money-maker.

There's probably others if I was willing to invest the time thinking of them ...

Anyway, I'm happy where I am now
... and it's FREE!

[dixon cox]

Between both forums, LB-69 and TLF, they probably account for over 95% of the available ladyboy forums that are worth visiting ...

There are great guys over there ... and there are great guys over here (group hug?)

TLF will probably lose lurkers & low-level posters because they don't get to see as much, and a few mid-range posters out of principal. Some bods will buy their way in, some will come over here, but all the establishment will stay put while the newbies won't know any different if they stumble across TLF first.


What do we gain here?
... cheap charlie detritus


Come on all you new faces, introduce yourselves