21 replies to this topic

[matchman]

I don´t think it´s wise to complain of double standards in Thailand (though I don´t deny this exists).
First of all, FACE is just a different cultural code, which we as foreigners and guests should simply be sensitive to.
In most "Western" countries, in particular with Protestant background, people value much more honesty and reliability. We simply hate to be lied at (I certainly do).
But then how often do I see Westerners being rude and disrespectful when they believe they are just being "honest" and "open" .......................?

Smile, one of the biggest complaints I hear from the Thai LBs and GGs is that we all lie, I'd be hard pressed to agree about being Protestant and more honest, because although we are mostly honest there are many areas we simply dont consider as needing honesty, how may times does a farang in LOS say "Yes I call you", "Yes I see you tomorrow" etc we have no intention of doing either but consider answering honestly as having the potential to cause conflict or upset the other person. (I am very careful never to tell a Thai or most Asian that I'll call or see them unless I'm a 100% sure I will.)

To the reference to FACE I think the objection is that many Bar workers and Thai's simply twist face to extract cash so in essence trying to be sensitive will see you stripped of cash. I do 100% agree that as foreigners we should be aware of the differences with a culture and at least try and make some effort to learn about the differences.

For those who want a quick list of items around being sensitive.

Never touch a Thai with your foot
Never point with your feet
Only ever touch your GF or a Child on the top of the head
Thai's tend to be very conservative they DO NOT appreciate seeing your naked chest/gut when walking down the street
Try to smile (When that vendor keeps walking past a simple meow krap and a smile will see them return less often. A nasty "NO" will see them coming back time and again to pull your chain and make you look foolish.)
Shouting will get you nowhere

[oifarang]

Face

Wonderful excuse to do what they want when they want. Face is selective - when it suits they use it!

I have had ore experience of face than I could 'shake a stick at'.

Farangs, apparently, have no face - I find that rude to the 100% level.

Most Thais are fairly uneducated and I find it irritating that they use face as a weapon to appear superior.

One numbing aspect is that, for a child in a school, to ask a question is 'face orientated'. Pupil looks stupid/teacher looks stupid - now that is stupid.

To explore is important both for the student and the teacher. This 'face' restricts learning and betterment.

I am not suggesting a revolution but to ask a question is normal....

My Thai teacher told me "If you ask directions" the Thai will give them to you - even if they have no idea - to save face. That is ridiculous. The often used comment is 'Mai Glai' - Not Far. They say this knowing not how far....

The concept is that it is better to give a 'positive' response rather than a negative one. Arghhh!!!!!

Yes the smile is terrific (I wish the West was the same) BUT the system can be very alien.

So it is not a bad thing but just takes getting used to - I took 2 hours to find the local water company in 2005!

The inabilty to ask questions restrains their abilty to learn - do not ask as you may look stupid.

This is totally alien to Western ways.

Rant over.......(for now)

Oh you superiorist knob,if you don't like the Thai way then stay in your own fucking country you fucking bigot.

[matchman]

Face

Wonderful excuse to do what they want when they want. Face is selective - when it suits they use it!

I have had ore experience of face than I could 'shake a stick at'.

Farangs, apparently, have no face - I find that rude to the 100% level.

Most Thais are fairly uneducated and I find it irritating that they use face as a weapon to appear superior.

One numbing aspect is that, for a child in a school, to ask a question is 'face orientated'. Pupil looks stupid/teacher looks stupid - now that is stupid.

To explore is important both for the student and the teacher. This 'face' restricts learning and betterment.

I am not suggesting a revolution but to ask a question is normal....

My Thai teacher told me "If you ask directions" the Thai will give them to you - even if they have no idea - to save face. That is ridiculous. The often used comment is 'Mai Glai' - Not Far. They say this knowing not how far....

The concept is that it is better to give a 'positive' response rather than a negative one. Arghhh!!!!!

Yes the smile is terrific (I wish the West was the same) BUT the system can be very alien.

So it is not a bad thing but just takes getting used to - I took 2 hours to find the local water company in 2005!

The inabilty to ask questions restrains their abilty to learn - do not ask as you may look stupid.

This is totally alien to Western ways.

Rant over.......(for now)

Oh you superiorist knob,if you don't like the Thai way then stay in your own fucking country you fucking bigot.

Did you actually read the post? I realize there might have been some big words in there but that’s no excuse for using bad language. (Of course most bigots I've met seem to like to use swear words in every other sentence.)

Let’s see, Rossco is annoyed that Thai's often apply a double standard for face with Farangs being treated worse. (Probably a little bigoted of them don’t you think?)

I've spent quite a few years in Thailand and his comment on the low literacy rate is true, if you read international studies you'll find that the literacy rate in Thailand is very low, and yes my experience has been the lower educated tend to apply the double standard around face the most. (Of course based on your comment I'm guessing the literacy rate in your home country is slipping.)

Rossco notes the primary issue around face and how it can restrict peoples learning, which is backed up by many educated Thai's who find the system does restrict questioning by students and their ability to learn. (I think he even noted that educated Thai's often warn farangs that they won’t get a clear answer when asking questions if the Thai doesn’t know the answer, as his Thai teacher noted to him!)

He does see that the Thai's smiling is a great thing but suggests we Farangs might be a little too closed to accept it. (Hmm that would kind of infer that Rossco finds things in the Thai people that are better than those of Farangs, how bigoted and superior of him!)

In essence if you'd taken the time to read the post, Rossco objects to A) a double standard (What’s bigoted about that?) B) Notes that face can cause issues around learning and offers up a suggestion that he doesn’t believe it’s in the best interest, but warns Farangs to be aware of it so interaction while in Thailand don’t become confused. C) Likes the Thai smile but subtly suggests we as farangs might be a little bigoted and not appreciate its value properly.

Of course you were probably able to read that 4 letter word "RANT" and thought it was a trigger for you to see how your spelling was coming along for all those lovely swear words!!

Always great to have an open and honest dialogue with others so that we might learn and educate ourselves and I’m glad to see that you appear to be a person that sets a value to that.

Have a great day.

[Rossco]

Oifarang

A tad over reactionary.

A 'Forum', from the ancient Rome, is a place for people to express an opnion so your repost is somewhat harsh and of course it is only your opinion.

If your command of the English language was on par then you would appreciate I said 'Rant'. It is not being discourteous to Thais by just explaining how frustrating it may be for Westerners when confronted with the face culture.

I stand by what I said - if it is loss of face to ask questions, admit that you do not know/understand then that will put restraints on people to learn and explore.

Many Westerners living in Asia do get frustrated with face as it is quite alien to our upbringing/education. Apologies for pointing that common frustration out!

Of course ignorance is sublime.

[Surin Nix]

My 2 cents......

Oifarang, if you have a look at Rossco's past posts, you'll find many that are a combination of entertaining, informative, and as you've seen opinionated. He is a valued BM. In my estimation, exactly the type of person I enjoy having a beer with. In fact Rossco, since you come so highly recommended by Batman, I'm looking forward to exacty that in the coming month.....if our schedules overlap.

THIS forum is so appealing because like some other non (or barely) moderated forums, these little slights quickly turn into outright threadjacks as the two parties engage in a pubic purse-fights. That doesn't happen so much here, thus, the dialogue is generally friendly and civil. I think most of us here prefer to focus on the fun and informative stuff, and though we may disagree on some things, above all.....keeping it civil.

You indicated that you will soon be heading to BKK for a fun-filled few days journeying through the dark-side. We're all happy for you, and in fact, I think you're a pretty decent guy, and I'm hoping to hook up with you for a beer in BKK (my time there will be brief).

There are a couple of types of posters here, I've noticed. Those who really do enjoy LB's, and those who think about enjoying LB's and live vicariously through this site.

Because of your stated intention to go to BKK and play, you'll find helpful BM's there to cheer you and help you. Now, imagine that you'd met Rossco at a bar, face-to-face. Would you spew the same venom to his face having said what he said?

Probaby, in his midst, you'd be thinking that his comments have no bearing at all on your good-time, and would either laugh it off, or better, find some areas on which you do agree. We can all find things we don't agree with in another, and we can always find common ground as well.

So I say treat the forum like that. Why are we here? Ladyboys!

all this other stuff is just fluff and provocation for its own sake. Let's turn down the name-calling, and treat each other with a modicum of respect.

Oh, and my final thought is that "uneducated" is not the same as "stupid". I am uneducated, (i.e. "ignorant") of the workings of a nuclear submarine. Yet, I'm pretty sure I'm not stupid. The uneducated Thais are not stupid either.....simply uneducated in certain regards, and this i do not consider reflective of their intelligence at all. It is no shame to be ignorant. Perhaps it is a shame to wallow in it, and never seek a higher understanding.

Anyway, think of sitting with Rossco face-to-face, at a bar, and the mood being one of you mutually wanting to have a great time. That's a lot more fun. And it could very well happen on your upcoming trip. I may be there too, and wouldn't hesitate to have a beer with you.

Cheers,

Nix

[petesie]

Uncalled for post by Oifarang.....

You obviously have not a great deal or depth of history within this forum as you have no idea of the offence your retort actually causes amongst not only the Forum members who have met Rossco and consider him a good friend but additionally those BM's who have followed the content of his posts and recognise good insight and input where they see it...

Hopefully you will have gained from this....good luck!

[boomdraw]

there is no face in thailand, much like india has none either, u start with a make believe culture u get make believe cast and real rascism and the racism is always against your own. the thais are no diff then indians, they have sold a lie to themselves n there peers, in life rank n value must be there even if imaginary, sadly when its imaginary the reality that follows is cast predjuice, word use franchises( common talk, king talk etc) (restricted social mobility n types of careers), and what follows those is tons of repression, shame and usually poverty n violence. i have no respect for ''face'' in a totalitarian concept like pre determined birth right life placement via ones acquired karma , it breeds bad actors and snobs which are none other then masters over the slaves it has made n in honesty never intends on letting go or freeing. saving face, karma and making merit are pure bullshit and if thai people would leave each other alone theyd realize it isnt karma or face its simply nosey mother fuckers who have nothing to add to change as that would take waking up over dreaming n going to the bank of goodluck aka thai buddhism. u mix in alcoholism and a tropical lifestyle with few spirit houses and u have one terrific recipe for sex tourist and your nations prettyiest youth prostitues to get into ''face saving'' arguements on the streets of pattaya at 5am over 7 dollars, kind of makes the whole thing worth it if u ask me. oh this world of ours and its entitlement complex's n shame bandaids, when will we grow up fully? is not sport fucking galee's in just such a place while protecting the honor of the other gallee we fucked yesturday by renting a room nowhere near her bar and doing are part one barfineless shag at a time away from the grapevine of thai gossip greng jai at its finest?? isnt it really just kids n adolescents who were lied to who we have to tip toe around so as to not bruise there ego?. lets face facts folks, stockholm syndrome is pretty fucking fun for a bank robber or sex tourist bar hopper in asia.

ive said many times
greng jai= greng lie, its just a lie, a polite one, at times a politely violent one, the smile with a knife in your back.

nothing trumps honesty folks, its more intoxicating then anything in life. embrace it but also remember that truth is rooted in falsehood as it is in greng lie, sometimes as a bankrobber u might have to be sweet to your captives.

[petesie]

Well thought out and meaningful insight there Boomdraw...I think you may have earned the respect of quite a few people with this surprisingly honest synopsis.

Thanks for that mate. ;-)

[Nob Hoskins]

there is no face in thailand, much like india has none either, u start with a make believe culture u get make believe cast and real rascism and the racism is always against your own. the thais are no diff then indians, they have sold a lie to themselves n there peers, in life rank n value must be there even if imaginary, sadly when its imaginary the reality that follows is cast predjuice, word use franchises( common talk, king talk etc) (restricted social mobility n types of careers), and what follows those is tons of repression, shame and usually poverty n violence. i have no respect for ''face'' in a totalitarian concept like pre determined birth right life placement via ones acquired karma , it breeds bad actors and snobs which are none other then masters over the slaves it has made n in honesty never intends on letting go or freeing. saving face, karma and making merit are pure bullshit and if thai people would leave each other alone theyd realize it isnt karma or face its simply nosey mother fuckers who have nothing to add to change as that would take waking up over dreaming n going to the bank of goodluck aka thai buddhism. u mix in alcoholism and a tropical lifestyle with few spirit houses and u have one terrific recipe for sex tourist and your nations prettyiest youth prostitues to get into ''face saving'' arguements on the streets of pattaya at 5am over 7 dollars, kind of makes the whole thing worth it if u ask me. oh this world of ours and its entitlement complex's n shame bandaids, when will we grow up fully? is not sport fucking galee's in just such a place while protecting the honor of the other gallee we fucked yesturday by renting a room nowhere near her bar and doing are part one barfineless shag at a time away from the grapevine of thai gossip greng jai at its finest?? isnt it really just kids n adolescents who were lied to who we have to tip toe around so as to not bruise there ego?. lets face facts folks, stockholm syndrome is pretty fucking fun for a bank robber or sex tourist bar hopper in asia.

ive said many times
greng jai= greng lie, its just a lie, a polite one, at times a politely violent one, the smile with a knife in your back.

nothing trumps honesty folks, its more intoxicating then anything in life. embrace it but also remember that truth is rooted in falsehood as it is in greng lie, sometimes as a bankrobber u might have to be sweet to your captives.

What a brilliant post & altogether great thread for that matter.

Yes, the arrogance of a people/society that has nothing & defensively hides behind the pretence of being an honour culture.
Unfortunately I saw the same thing in my own working class London culture & consiquently ran away to Thailand... Silly move, out of the frying pan & into the fire I suppose?

Anyway, a little while ago I did actually put it to a ladyboy whom I was having some problems with that it works both ways & I didn't think she had any face with me all the time she avoided talking & conducting herself honestly. I expected her to start screaming the place down, but she didn't, she actually listened & took it on board, 'bright girl'... Unfortunately it all went back to normal a few days later, but at least the though of it had stuck in her head for a bit & it may come back to her from time to time, I live in hope?